What that much of an amp draw I would think you had to install an "ambulance special" alternator to keep up with a properly charged battery or is that Dodge it’s installed in come with a heavy duty alternator?. Very neat installation-the only drawback I might add is having that electrolizer mounted so low it becomes susceptible to road damage by flying objects, etc. otherwise the installation is very squared away. Never realized Sid Young’s design pulled so may amps.
How long have you had it operational and what is the longest run you have made? Do you have any other gauges to monitor the health of this unit besides the amp meter? What about EGT gauge to determine safety limits of IC engine as you motor along? Are you using a flashback arrestor with double bubblers?
Just a thought-have you checked out that pump as to it being explosion proof. My question is since hydroxy gas can be ignited by static electricity has that pump concept been tested? I am aware that static electricty will be produced by pumps. Just trying to be safe -I am not trying to undermine your installation!
It looks like his pump isnt going to have much gas (air or hydroxy) running through it. Usually those types of pumps dont like to have anything but fluid running through them and there performance degrades significantly if they do.
father doom? LOL! It looks pretty well protected to me. You have a slick set-up. I'm curious if the placement of the reservoir has affected the truck's coolant temperature at all, but just ignore this if you feel a disturbance in your Chi.
It’s difficult playing the Devil's Advocate-but necessary when dealing with highly explosive unknowns such as hydroxy gas. My perspective is from that of 62 yr. old Dude that survived an Asian war, economic depressions, and dealing with demolitions early in my youth as a member of a special opt team. Yes, demolitions like applies to the highly explosive hydroxy gas. And overhauled and modified engines of all types as well as used mixtures of fuels--that sort of experince should qualify my questions-don't you think? Oh don’t mind my quarries –it’s your life not mine. Nevertheless, I would think you would have thought out all possible scenarios that may arise before installation!!
Also, that advice on3guy gives is right on; “it looks like his pump isnt going to have much gas (air or hydroxy) running through it. Usually those types of pumps dont like to have anything but fluid running through them and there performance degrades significantly if they do."
Have a good laugh but reminder that you were warned. about the pump as well as other necessary gauges like EGT (exhaust gas tester) that may have save your mill (IC engine) Happy motoring!
The Pragamatic One
I think because it is a bladder type pump, the pumping section will be less susceptible to whatever static electricity the motor produces. Also, he could ground the casing if he was really worried about it, that might help.
As for explosion proof, my guess is that it is not and if it did blowup only the plastic would go flying.
With all that said, if the pump is pumping from the bottom of the reservoir, he should have virtually zero gas in the pump. And any bubbles that do make it that far would be to small to cause any harm.
Tell you what, YOU build your perfect failsafe cell and show me how it's done.
Till then you have little credentials to criticize or nitpick anyone else’s.
INCOMMING
But I’ve learned along the way some people lead and some people prefer to sit on the fence and throw rocks.
Have fun up there.
Oh and you signed your post wrong it should be:
"The Pessimistic One"
I must have struck a nerve because you expressed a great deal of venom in a short sentence. I was merely trying to let you see possible problems before they arise.
I don’t sit on any fence-I have built a multitude of units and experimented from A-L on configurations- the M thru Z hasn't been accomplished. Fluid dynamics within a cell, plate spacing, temp rise vs. amps and the Saga continues to this day—Yes, I am still looking for the Utopian one-if it’s out there?
You have done a good installation from a kit and I like your unit as well as its installation other than possible pit falls I pointed out. Olive branch offering!
PS. Never learned to type well or forget to proof read some of my post nevertheless it doesn’t diminish what I have expressed about safety!!I pighead about safety like Nick_Stone is about his concepts.(lol) Got to go and prepare for a possible blow-Gustav!
Remember an Ounce of prevention is worth more than a Pound of cure!
Im just happy that most users here arent using glass (like 75% of other forums/sites) for any part of the booster.
Its pretty amazing when you look at some of the designs we have here compared so other websites. We are doing very well when it comes to safety (everyone lacks in areas, but thats to be expected as this is a DIY [do it yourself] community) and overall design.
Since we are DIY builders we need to pool our collective knowledge bad or good-and as to questions that arise about the safety of technology and/or installations should not be meet by laughter. Reminds me of the story I‘ve read my grandkids over and over-everybody knows the story of “the three little pigs”—so lets build safe units and when someone offers constructive criticisms don’t respond by name calling-respond by facts or answers like “I am glad you posed that question-I don’t know but will find out”. Or thanks I never considered that as a possible issue.
RadGen-if you looking for that slap on the back-I 'll give it to you for a neat installation! Those that shout INCOMMING never see the fruits of their alarms. Its the silent stealthy ones that get you! Hehe....
Glass should not even be considered at all for containers-like thatOn3guy expressed-that’s my experience as well as opinion!
It's all fun and games until someone loses an eye...just kidding.
We're dealing with relatively small volumes of hydroxy here. The worst that could happen, as far as I can see, is a loud "pop" as it blows a supply line loose or the cap off the reservoir.
Any explosives expert can tell you that one of the things that can enhance an explosion is trying to contain it. Take a pipe bomb for example. It wouldn't be nearly as effective if it were made from the core of a toilet paper roll. The safest approach possible is to eliminate gas leaks and to have many calculated weak points for an explosion to escape from without doing any real harm.
There is nothing remotely dangerous about RadGen's set-up. I think most of us have spent some time, especially in the early stages of investigation, blowing stuff up with hydroxy gas..or was that just me?
P.S. Now would be a good time for everyone to mention how patriotic we all are and how much we love our government because I'm sure the mere mention of "blowing stuff up" and "pipe bombs" is going to trigger a red flag from a web crawler spider bot and get the attention of some NSA geek analyst somewhere.
Yea,
I am a little touchy; I have quite a few hours vested in cutting my own gaskets, building, testing, rebuilding, retesting, modifying etc... To have someone come along and nit pick it without a cell of their own to show pisses me off...
But so far on this forum it's what I've come to expect. I posted to a different thread and had some other Darin Stevens looking yahoo do the same thing.
Do I see any other cells posted producing 3+ liters? NO
Is anyone else posting video to document their work? NO
Had you been to YouTube and see the volume of my work prior to digging at it? NO
So yes I am touchy, but remember you drew first blood.
Since we are DIY builders we need to pool our collective knowledge ...
Thats why we have a safety section in our wiki http://aquauto.com/wiki/safety . Anyone can add safety advise and we can compile our knowledge of safety.
Nice, I dont know if I would have thought of that.
Does anyone else just wonder the hardware store trying to figure out what to use for something. Workers always come up and ask if they can help me find something and they can never help me. Like your gaskets, I would wonder around looking at different rubber like things that "might work" for what I want to use them for . Good times...
I wander around Lowe's like that all the time. When they ask me if they can help, I always tell them I'm just looking for some inspiration...sometimes I find it on my own...sometimes they help...most of the time they just distract me.
My favorite one when they ask "what do you need it for" is to say "If I tell you you're just gonna say you dont have it and I should go to the dealer".
So he gives me the "humoring an idiot look" with a "well tell me and I'll help you" manner, of course by now I'm just getting into my stride. So I say Im looking for a side toolbox lock for a 1955 era Royal Enfield Bullet.
Yep you guessed it, "no we don't have that" says he, "we're a hardware store only", "maybe you can try the dealer".
Anyways I carried on looking and eventually found a "drawer cam lock 35mm" which I took back to the sales guy and said, "this is what they look like".
I should carry my camera around to snap all the dirty looks I get.
Ha! As a contractor, I can totally relate to idiots in sales. Sometimes though, you get a guy with just as much imagination as us and he walks you thru different departments and ideas of his own, but it's rare.
Couple side notes. I started calling our little explosions "pops", due to the nature of what usually happens. Not like you set off a BOMB or something. Haven't had one yet, thanx to reading many, many posts.
I can relate to the OP's view of a LOT of work into a unit. My tero cell was WAY too much work and will be shortcut on the larger one. First, no more drilling thru the plates for the bolts; I'll put them outside like the other guys. Had current going thru my shower pan gasket material, AND thru my hobby level plexiglass spacers. Evidently there is good plexi and bad plexi, and different types of pan material. I lost on both counts, so will be trying 1/8" vinyl tubing or an idea I had today, window screen spline. I got a mess of it for about $3.50 and it's .175" thick. The grooves in it make me worry though. I'll have to keep it really straight or it may cause fluid to run out the grooves. Or I may just GOOP each piece.
Gary,
From my own experiments, I think the Plexiglas spacers will have a down side beyond cracking. On my cell I have experimented with various thicknesses of gaskets. I have found the narrower the gap between the plates the lower my electrolyte concentration had to be in order to produce my desired amperage. Beyond having a safer solution to work with, the low concentration eliminated foaming. If you look at my electrolyte it looks clear, no clouds no foam, I like it.
Also, after reading your post I tested resistance on my shower pan liner, it tested as non-conductive, The stuff I’m using is sold by the foot at Home Depot on a roll 60” wide. The next time I’m there I see if I can get specs.
I got mine from Depot...hm.
Bob Boyce found that the nominal spacing was around 1/8" for plates since as you said, closer is better for amperages, but for flow, a bit more than a thin gasket was needed. The shower pan liner is 1mm and two did not produce well for me...but conductivity was one problem and a bigger one may have been my 7 cells. Shoulda been six. It may be that different stores are supplied by different manufacturers so we have two different properties on the gaskets. The Tero Cell was originally around 1/8" as well. I think the dry cells are a bit sensitive to flow issues myself, from the experiments thus far, but I'll only know when I get mine working properly.
I'll do something different to it tomorrow, possibly try the gaskets alone again, but with one less cell. It DID produce a bit of gas as did my series cell, which really blasted off when I shorted a cell out. Over 2v seems to me to be a requirement, not a detriment, regardless of what others say about the magic number 1.6v or thereabouts.
As for Tero Ranta, a pioneer yes; but some of his terminology is wrong. He described his “Series Cell” using a “parallel” cells terminology. And he limited his gasket material to what he had readily available which was 1/8th” PVC warehouse door curtain material. His cells output was measures in liters per hour (his cell 3.5 l/hr, mine 192 l/hr). What were going for are liters per minute so to do that we need to increase efficiency. And I don’t agree with him on “optimal” gap voltage (he misnames it cell voltage). But he is a great source for fundamentals and overall and it’s a great place to start when building your first cell. Go from him to ZFF and SSC and you can’t go wrong.
Looking at your cell, this is a series cell correct? 1 positive and 1 negative electrode, with 6 neutrals, right? So just to get us both on the same nomenclature; your cell is a 6n1 meaning it is 1 cell with 6 neutrals. As you add completed circuits your “cells” increase. For instance if you ran –NNNNN+NNNNN- this would be a 5n2.
If I read your post right, you plan on taking out a neutral giving you a 5n1, which is good for an automotive system this will give you a gap voltage between plates of about 2.25v. Below 2v the cell runs too cool and you don’t get convection flow and above 2.4v you start wasting energy by producing too much heat.
Many people think a hot cell is good; their reason is that they get false production increases, when what is really happening is they are saturating the HHO gas with water vapor and this causes the gases volume to increase.
Take your multi-meter down to Home Depot with you and see if you get conductivity on whatever you choose for your new gasket. I have tried various gasket thicknesses (0.040”, 0.0625” and 0.1025”) for me the 0.040” works best. But I am running a 5n4 cell pushing 45amps with a pump for circulation.
So you "cheated" with a pump, eh?
I'm guessing that your .040" wouldn't be as prime of a spacing were there no pump to improve flow?
Thanx for the comeback; I have referred to my Tero as having flow issues before, but it was muddied by the current leakage and excess cells too. At this point I just want to save this cell because there's so much work into it.
Now oddly, if I check the gaskets dry, there is nothing to report; I just got current when they were in operation. They weren't wet on the outside either; it doesn't leak. Mostly I got current on the plexiglass; very noticable.
My next cell would be much larger, but multiples like yours are intriguing. Everything I do from here on out depends on my H2 only experiments upcoming. I really don't want to have to buy electronics for the vehicles if I don't have to.
The cell flows fine at lower amps and gas output, but you reach a point where if:
1. Your running a low concentration of electrolyte, and you have no foam;
2. Your putting out a large amount of gas.
That the gas is flowing too fast to lift the low viscosity electrolyte back into the bubbler.
I could change the design of the bubbler and make the entry point at the bottom and it would fix this by making the cell saturated on both sides. However, the pump serves two other purposes. It makes setting up electrolyte concentration easy by equalizing the mix throughout the cell. And second it keeps the temp of the cell and reservoir constant and thus amps constant trough the day.
Thanks for sharing, great video.
Is there a reason you chose gasket material over rubber O-ring?
And do you think it would be possible to use a pump and gasket on a 2 gang stainless steel wall plate?
Yes, except with a 2 gang plate (twice the width).
This would allow the for a much smaller design.
Did you try o-rings and have problems with leaks?
Sorry for all the questions, just trying not to duplicate work already done.
I think the design you are using is the best so far because it allows you to test/troubleshoot the voltage drops and other variables (in real time) without taking it apart every time or having to install extra wiring.
No O rings, will you ever stop asking about f***ing O rings. Are you obsessed with O rings or what?
How many times do I have to answer the same question???
Do you have a drawing or anything else from the Holes where the Water is flowing between the Plates?
I 've only this foto.... I see 2 Holes in every Stainless Steel Plate. The other holes are for the
screws...
What are the Grey Plates? is it a Sealing rubber or Sealing Paper?
The transparent Plates are Plexiglass or Polystyrol Plastic Bar-Spacers?
where
P = PVC Plastic on the Top and End,
p = Plastic Bar Spacers
s = Sealing paper and
S = Stainless Steel Electrodes?
How dou you made the Polarisation of the Electrodes?
You said about 4 Neutral ans 26 ?? Plates... is it +-N-+N-+N-+N-+ or what exactly?
Where areyou pumping the Water in the Electrolyzer? and where does it comes out,.. The HHO-Gas
Connector has no Pressure of water?... is it only at the Upper Siter?
IS in your Pumped-Water a little Bit HHO-Gas too??
I used 1/8" roll o-ring for the finish, got rid of all other crap I had in there...now it hits 1L/min @ 12a and 85F. Next build: double sided one four double output.
You should not have to run 45 amps to get 3Lt/Min . Many have achieved 2Lt/Mn on less than 20 amps
Also the engine size will of course determine the optimum hho generation rate for best performance ,
at an RPM optimal range. It is not necessary to generate great volumes of hho since it is only a
catalyst that significantly increases the power output of the basic fuel. Like many processes that are
enhanced by use of a catalyst there is a "sweet spot" of catalyst concentration, beyond which the
returns of the process become less efficient. Good luck with your experiments.
Like most, I've only been running 1L on our stuff. I have an 8 and a 4 cyl. - I'd like to see 2L for the car to see how it improves and more for the truck. One general recommendation I've seen a lot lately was 1L/Liter of engine size. I'd doubt to see 5.3L of gas on a 105a alternator tho...and anything over 3 will require cooling and a pump IMO.
My little homemade radiator probably won't do much for over 2 litre, as a guess. All depends on design. You mentioned 2L/20amp units? I haven't seen one, so which model are you talking about?
nice setup---3 lpm --very
nice setup---3 lpm --very good --when you get a chance post somemore pic's--they speak 1000 words
very good install--looks very clean
45 Amp draw What Does Your Alernator Put Our?
What that much of an amp draw I would think you had to install an "ambulance special" alternator to keep up with a properly charged battery or is that Dodge it’s installed in come with a heavy duty alternator?. Very neat installation-the only drawback I might add is having that electrolizer mounted so low it becomes susceptible to road damage by flying objects, etc. otherwise the installation is very squared away. Never realized Sid Young’s design pulled so may amps.
How long have you had it operational and what is the longest run you have made? Do you have any other gauges to monitor the health of this unit besides the amp meter? What about EGT gauge to determine safety limits of IC engine as you motor along? Are you using a flashback arrestor with double bubblers?
Just a thought-have you checked out that pump as to it being explosion proof. My question is since hydroxy gas can be ignited by static electricity has that pump concept been tested? I am aware that static electricty will be produced by pumps. Just trying to be safe -I am not trying to undermine your installation!
pump
It looks like his pump isnt going to have much gas (air or hydroxy) running through it. Usually those types of pumps dont like to have anything but fluid running through them and there performance degrades significantly if they do.
amps
Dude what are you father doom?
My truck stock has a 136 amp alt. A guy in Riverside bumped it to 150amps.
The cell is right behind the bumper. The bumper has molding and an air dam so I'm really not worries about road debri.
Sid cell will run alot higher than that. I chose 45 amps to be able to push 3 liters, plus my alt handles it well.
And the rest is in my videos on YouTube
father doom? LOL! It looks
father doom? LOL! It looks pretty well protected to me. You have a slick set-up. I'm curious if the placement of the reservoir has affected the truck's coolant temperature at all, but just ignore this if you feel a disturbance in your Chi.
placement
Cell runs cooler than my coolant temp. Plus I have good airflow around the reservoirs.
Father Doom or Sensible?
It’s difficult playing the Devil's Advocate-but necessary when dealing with highly explosive unknowns such as hydroxy gas. My perspective is from that of 62 yr. old Dude that survived an Asian war, economic depressions, and dealing with demolitions early in my youth as a member of a special opt team. Yes, demolitions like applies to the highly explosive hydroxy gas. And overhauled and modified engines of all types as well as used mixtures of fuels--that sort of experince should qualify my questions-don't you think? Oh don’t mind my quarries –it’s your life not mine. Nevertheless, I would think you would have thought out all possible scenarios that may arise before installation!!
Also, that advice on3guy gives is right on; “it looks like his pump isnt going to have much gas (air or hydroxy) running through it. Usually those types of pumps dont like to have anything but fluid running through them and there performance degrades significantly if they do."
Have a good laugh but reminder that you were warned. about the pump as well as other necessary gauges like EGT (exhaust gas tester) that may have save your mill (IC engine) Happy motoring!
The Pragamatic One
Static
I think because it is a bladder type pump, the pumping section will be less susceptible to whatever static electricity the motor produces. Also, he could ground the casing if he was really worried about it, that might help.
As for explosion proof, my guess is that it is not and if it did blowup only the plastic would go flying.
With all that said, if the pump is pumping from the bottom of the reservoir, he should have virtually zero gas in the pump. And any bubbles that do make it that far would be to small to cause any harm.
Doom is as doom does
Tell you what, YOU build your perfect failsafe cell and show me how it's done.
Till then you have little credentials to criticize or nitpick anyone else’s.
INCOMMING
But I’ve learned along the way some people lead and some people prefer to sit on the fence and throw rocks.
Have fun up there.
Oh and you signed your post wrong it should be:
"The Pessimistic One"
Ps. It’s – Pragmatic not Pragamatic
Touchy?
I must have struck a nerve because you expressed a great deal of venom in a short sentence. I was merely trying to let you see possible problems before they arise.
I don’t sit on any fence-I have built a multitude of units and experimented from A-L on configurations- the M thru Z hasn't been accomplished. Fluid dynamics within a cell, plate spacing, temp rise vs. amps and the Saga continues to this day—Yes, I am still looking for the Utopian one-if it’s out there?
You have done a good installation from a kit and I like your unit as well as its installation other than possible pit falls I pointed out. Olive branch offering!
PS. Never learned to type well or forget to proof read some of my post nevertheless it doesn’t diminish what I have expressed about safety!!I pighead about safety like Nick_Stone is about his concepts.(lol) Got to go and prepare for a possible blow-Gustav!
Remember an Ounce of prevention is worth more than a Pound of cure!
Glass
Im just happy that most users here arent using glass (like 75% of other forums/sites) for any part of the booster.
Its pretty amazing when you look at some of the designs we have here compared so other websites. We are doing very well when it comes to safety (everyone lacks in areas, but thats to be expected as this is a DIY [do it yourself] community) and overall design.
Constructive Critics,
Since we are DIY builders we need to pool our collective knowledge bad or good-and as to questions that arise about the safety of technology and/or installations should not be meet by laughter. Reminds me of the story I‘ve read my grandkids over and over-everybody knows the story of “the three little pigs”—so lets build safe units and when someone offers constructive criticisms don’t respond by name calling-respond by facts or answers like “I am glad you posed that question-I don’t know but will find out”. Or thanks I never considered that as a possible issue.
RadGen-if you looking for that slap on the back-I 'll give it to you for a neat installation! Those that shout INCOMMING never see the fruits of their alarms. Its the silent stealthy ones that get you! Hehe....
Glass should not even be considered at all for containers-like thatOn3guy expressed-that’s my experience as well as opinion!
It's all fun and games until
It's all fun and games until someone loses an eye...just kidding.
We're dealing with relatively small volumes of hydroxy here. The worst that could happen, as far as I can see, is a loud "pop" as it blows a supply line loose or the cap off the reservoir.
Any explosives expert can tell you that one of the things that can enhance an explosion is trying to contain it. Take a pipe bomb for example. It wouldn't be nearly as effective if it were made from the core of a toilet paper roll. The safest approach possible is to eliminate gas leaks and to have many calculated weak points for an explosion to escape from without doing any real harm.
There is nothing remotely dangerous about RadGen's set-up. I think most of us have spent some time, especially in the early stages of investigation, blowing stuff up with hydroxy gas..or was that just me?
P.S. Now would be a good time for everyone to mention how patriotic we all are and how much we love our government because I'm sure the mere mention of "blowing stuff up" and "pipe bombs" is going to trigger a red flag from a web crawler spider bot and get the attention of some NSA geek analyst somewhere.
touch
Yea,
I am a little touchy; I have quite a few hours vested in cutting my own gaskets, building, testing, rebuilding, retesting, modifying etc... To have someone come along and nit pick it without a cell of their own to show pisses me off...
But so far on this forum it's what I've come to expect. I posted to a different thread and had some other Darin Stevens looking yahoo do the same thing.
Do I see any other cells posted producing 3+ liters? NO
Is anyone else posting video to document their work? NO
Had you been to YouTube and see the volume of my work prior to digging at it? NO
So yes I am touchy, but remember you drew first blood.
Safety
Thats why we have a safety section in our wiki http://aquauto.com/wiki/safety . Anyone can add safety advise and we can compile our knowledge of safety.
Gaskets
Hey Rad, what do you use for gasket material and where do you get it?
Oh yeah, and can't we all just get along? In the end we are all trying to do the same thing, right?
The Secret Cause of Flame Wars
I thought this might be a good time to post this:
http://www.wired.com/science/discoveries/news/2006/02/70179
http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Study_says_people_don%27t_understand_the_emo...
Gasket
0.040" Shower Pan liner, it's sold 60" wide by the foot at Home Depot
Wondering the hardware store
Nice, I dont know if I would have thought of that.
Does anyone else just wonder the hardware store trying to figure out what to use for something. Workers always come up and ask if they can help me find something and they can never help me. Like your gaskets, I would wonder around looking at different rubber like things that "might work" for what I want to use them for
. Good times...
LOL just give the word!!!
LOL just give the word!!! 1000 yards should be good!!!
well my 2cents
home depot sells pvc and cpe shower pans -----use which one you want but CPE will take the chem and heat better
Inspiration
I wander around Lowe's like that all the time. When they ask me if they can help, I always tell them I'm just looking for some inspiration...sometimes I find it on my own...sometimes they help...most of the time they just distract me.
alot of the times they are
alot of the times they are just like car dealers(sorry if your one)VULTURES
"sure you dont need pan liner---just plywood and lay your tile on top ---the grout will keep it from leaking" oh I can hear it now
Hardware store inspiration
Sounds like a good book title
.
Whenever they ask "what do you need it for" and I tell them they always give me the I-have-no-idea-what-he's-talking-about-look. Thats a good look.
My favorite one when they
My favorite one when they ask "what do you need it for" is to say "If I tell you you're just gonna say you dont have it and I should go to the dealer".
So he gives me the "humoring an idiot look" with a "well tell me and I'll help you" manner, of course by now I'm just getting into my stride. So I say Im looking for a side toolbox lock for a 1955 era Royal Enfield Bullet.
Yep you guessed it, "no we don't have that" says he, "we're a hardware store only", "maybe you can try the dealer".
Anyways I carried on looking and eventually found a "drawer cam lock 35mm" which I took back to the sales guy and said, "this is what they look like".
I should carry my camera around to snap all the dirty looks I get.
Dirty looks
Lol, Dirty looks is right. Its almost like they don't want you shopping there because they can't easily help you.
Its also funny when they come up to you and offer assistance and then act annoyed when you they do know what you need.
Ha! As a contractor, I can
Ha! As a contractor, I can totally relate to idiots in sales. Sometimes though, you get a guy with just as much imagination as us and he walks you thru different departments and ideas of his own, but it's rare.
Couple side notes. I started calling our little explosions "pops", due to the nature of what usually happens. Not like you set off a BOMB or something. Haven't had one yet, thanx to reading many, many posts.
I can relate to the OP's view of a LOT of work into a unit. My tero cell was WAY too much work and will be shortcut on the larger one. First, no more drilling thru the plates for the bolts; I'll put them outside like the other guys. Had current going thru my shower pan gasket material, AND thru my hobby level plexiglass spacers. Evidently there is good plexi and bad plexi, and different types of pan material. I lost on both counts, so will be trying 1/8" vinyl tubing or an idea I had today, window screen spline. I got a mess of it for about $3.50 and it's .175" thick. The grooves in it make me worry though. I'll have to keep it really straight or it may cause fluid to run out the grooves. Or I may just GOOP each piece.
keep us posted ---sounds
keep us posted ---sounds like a fun weekend
new cell
Gary,
From my own experiments, I think the Plexiglas spacers will have a down side beyond cracking. On my cell I have experimented with various thicknesses of gaskets. I have found the narrower the gap between the plates the lower my electrolyte concentration had to be in order to produce my desired amperage. Beyond having a safer solution to work with, the low concentration eliminated foaming. If you look at my electrolyte it looks clear, no clouds no foam, I like it.
Also, after reading your post I tested resistance on my shower pan liner, it tested as non-conductive, The stuff I’m using is sold by the foot at Home Depot on a roll 60” wide. The next time I’m there I see if I can get specs.
Good luck on your next cell.
R
Hmmmm....
I got mine from Depot...hm.
Bob Boyce found that the nominal spacing was around 1/8" for plates since as you said, closer is better for amperages, but for flow, a bit more than a thin gasket was needed. The shower pan liner is 1mm and two did not produce well for me...but conductivity was one problem and a bigger one may have been my 7 cells. Shoulda been six. It may be that different stores are supplied by different manufacturers so we have two different properties on the gaskets. The Tero Cell was originally around 1/8" as well. I think the dry cells are a bit sensitive to flow issues myself, from the experiments thus far, but I'll only know when I get mine working properly.
I'll do something different to it tomorrow, possibly try the gaskets alone again, but with one less cell. It DID produce a bit of gas as did my series cell, which really blasted off when I shorted a cell out. Over 2v seems to me to be a requirement, not a detriment, regardless of what others say about the magic number 1.6v or thereabouts.
cell design
As for Tero Ranta, a pioneer yes; but some of his terminology is wrong. He described his “Series Cell” using a “parallel” cells terminology. And he limited his gasket material to what he had readily available which was 1/8th” PVC warehouse door curtain material. His cells output was measures in liters per hour (his cell 3.5 l/hr, mine 192 l/hr). What were going for are liters per minute so to do that we need to increase efficiency. And I don’t agree with him on “optimal” gap voltage (he misnames it cell voltage). But he is a great source for fundamentals and overall and it’s a great place to start when building your first cell. Go from him to ZFF and SSC and you can’t go wrong.
Looking at your cell, this is a series cell correct? 1 positive and 1 negative electrode, with 6 neutrals, right? So just to get us both on the same nomenclature; your cell is a 6n1 meaning it is 1 cell with 6 neutrals. As you add completed circuits your “cells” increase. For instance if you ran –NNNNN+NNNNN- this would be a 5n2.
If I read your post right, you plan on taking out a neutral giving you a 5n1, which is good for an automotive system this will give you a gap voltage between plates of about 2.25v. Below 2v the cell runs too cool and you don’t get convection flow and above 2.4v you start wasting energy by producing too much heat.
Many people think a hot cell is good; their reason is that they get false production increases, when what is really happening is they are saturating the HHO gas with water vapor and this causes the gases volume to increase.
Take your multi-meter down to Home Depot with you and see if you get conductivity on whatever you choose for your new gasket. I have tried various gasket thicknesses (0.040”, 0.0625” and 0.1025”) for me the 0.040” works best. But I am running a 5n4 cell pushing 45amps with a pump for circulation.
Good luck
R
Aha and Aha.
So you "cheated" with a pump, eh?
I'm guessing that your .040" wouldn't be as prime of a spacing were there no pump to improve flow?
Thanx for the comeback; I have referred to my Tero as having flow issues before, but it was muddied by the current leakage and excess cells too. At this point I just want to save this cell because there's so much work into it.
Now oddly, if I check the gaskets dry, there is nothing to report; I just got current when they were in operation. They weren't wet on the outside either; it doesn't leak. Mostly I got current on the plexiglass; very noticable.
My next cell would be much larger, but multiples like yours are intriguing. Everything I do from here on out depends on my H2 only experiments upcoming. I really don't want to have to buy electronics for the vehicles if I don't have to.
Pump
The cell flows fine at lower amps and gas output, but you reach a point where if:
1. Your running a low concentration of electrolyte, and you have no foam;
2. Your putting out a large amount of gas.
That the gas is flowing too fast to lift the low viscosity electrolyte back into the bubbler.
I could change the design of the bubbler and make the entry point at the bottom and it would fix this by making the cell saturated on both sides. However, the pump serves two other purposes. It makes setting up electrolyte concentration easy by equalizing the mix throughout the cell. And second it keeps the temp of the cell and reservoir constant and thus amps constant trough the day.
Great Work - Thanks for the video. Question
Thanks for sharing, great video.
Is there a reason you chose gasket material over rubber O-ring?
And do you think it would be possible to use a pump and gasket on a 2 gang stainless steel wall plate?
Thanks in advance
I chose the shower pan liner
I chose the shower pan liner because it is nonconductive and does not compress, allowing for more touque to be applied to the bolts on the cell.
Are you talking about a smack cell?
Thanks
Yes, except with a 2 gang plate (twice the width).
This would allow the for a much smaller design.
Did you try o-rings and have problems with leaks?
Sorry for all the questions, just trying not to duplicate work already done.
I think the design you are using is the best so far because it allows you to test/troubleshoot the voltage drops and other variables (in real time) without taking it apart every time or having to install extra wiring.
O rings?????????????????????????????????????
No O rings, will you ever stop asking about f***ing O rings. Are you obsessed with O rings or what?
How many times do I have to answer the same question???
No O rings?
Well, then what did you wrap the wires around?
Wire wrapping
My swinging cod.
Ok
Enough said.
Link to Pump
http://www.sprayingequipmentsupply.com/pumps/diaphragm-pump.html
Cost is a little expensive, tried Ebay there is one for $20 plus $12 shipping.
Pump Specs
http://www.shurflo.com/pages/Food_Service/electric_pumps/categories/8000...
Entertaining thread.
Entertaining thread.
about your electolyzer,...
Hi,..
I want to rebuild a electrolyzer like yours,...
Do you have a drawing or anything else from the Holes where the Water is flowing between the Plates?
I 've only this foto.... I see 2 Holes in every Stainless Steel Plate. The other holes are for the
screws...
What are the Grey Plates? is it a Sealing rubber or Sealing Paper?
The transparent Plates are Plexiglass or Polystyrol Plastic Bar-Spacers?
Does it looks like so?
PPPspsSspsSspsSspsSspsSspsSspsSspsSspsSspsSspsSspsSspsSspsPPP
where
P = PVC Plastic on the Top and End,
p = Plastic Bar Spacers
s = Sealing paper and
S = Stainless Steel Electrodes?
How dou you made the Polarisation of the Electrodes?
You said about 4 Neutral ans 26 ?? Plates... is it +-N-+N-+N-+N-+ or what exactly?
Where areyou pumping the Water in the Electrolyzer? and where does it comes out,.. The HHO-Gas
Connector has no Pressure of water?... is it only at the Upper Siter?
IS in your Pumped-Water a little Bit HHO-Gas too??
Thanks you for your clarification,..of this,...
Go to www.fireinthewater.com
Go to www.fireinthewater.com and ask Sid, all your questions can be answered by him
My 6 cell
I used 1/8" roll o-ring for the finish, got rid of all other crap I had in there...now it hits 1L/min @ 12a and 85F. Next build: double sided one four double output.
Sid Cell 5n4
You should not have to run 45 amps to get 3Lt/Min . Many have achieved 2Lt/Mn on less than 20 amps
Also the engine size will of course determine the optimum hho generation rate for best performance ,
at an RPM optimal range. It is not necessary to generate great volumes of hho since it is only a
catalyst that significantly increases the power output of the basic fuel. Like many processes that are
enhanced by use of a catalyst there is a "sweet spot" of catalyst concentration, beyond which the
returns of the process become less efficient. Good luck with your experiments.
Constructive Critics
Amen re safety, especially when dealing with a volatile gas.
If anyone has time have a look at www.hhosafety.net , it's worth a read.
Like most, I've only been
Like most, I've only been running 1L on our stuff. I have an 8 and a 4 cyl. - I'd like to see 2L for the car to see how it improves and more for the truck. One general recommendation I've seen a lot lately was 1L/Liter of engine size. I'd doubt to see 5.3L of gas on a 105a alternator tho...and anything over 3 will require cooling and a pump IMO.
My little homemade radiator probably won't do much for over 2 litre, as a guess. All depends on design. You mentioned 2L/20amp units? I haven't seen one, so which model are you talking about?
Sid Cell 5n4
For research into generator performance I recommend the following:
Book One from www.eagle-research.com , some good technical info.
Also have a look at www.mpgsolutions.com and www.hydrogenfuelsolutions.com
Hydrogen Fuel Solutions specifically refer to a unit that produces 2L/Min
I looked around that site,
I looked around that site, but didn't see that unit. Was it by chance a 5n2 or 3?