Thu, 07/17/2008 - 10:15pm — Nick_Stone
Test Data for this Electrolyzer:
| Test Name | Test Number | Starting Amps | Ending Amps | Ending LPM | Ending Temp |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Prometheus 2.1 | 1 | 9 | 9 | 0.6 | 70 |
approval
I like the name. Where is my fire? Do I get fire? Will we see any images of this fire bringer?
Quote:PROMETHEUS steals fire
Ha, that makes makes me laugh. So many things about this site and that sentence are funny, good name
.
Prometheus
Is not just an electrolyzer; It's a system intended to demonstrate the superior advantages of modular design with PVC. Adding and subtracting individual cells from the system will be as easy as changing a light bulb or possibly even just flipping a switch to individually turn each one or entire banks of them on or off. Configuration of the system is totally customizable. There is no need to have all the cells located within a single housing or even within in close proximity to one another. The manifold system has flashback prevention built into itself in a synergistic and onobtrusive way. The individual cells are inherently isolated from one another electrically, so current leakage is not a major concern. More soon...Pictures coming soon...
Exciting
This sounds very interesting. Will filling be a pain though? If the units arent located close to each other then each one will need to be refilled separately... right?
It can be as simple (with
It can be as simple (with combination gravity flow reservoir/bubblers) or as complicated, intricate, and automated ( with fill switches and electric pumps) as you want to make it. The whole point of the concept is to get people to literally start thinking "outside the box". This is not something I intend patent or market. It's an idea I would like to see people run with because I know it will work.
I think its a great idea.
I think its a great idea. Just the word "modular" got my mind spinning of all sorts of ideas. I think this will definitely get people thinking outside the box.
first one is my new Hydroxy
first one is my new hho canon gun---lol j/k
SS screens hu
That sounds interesting.. you'll have to let us know how it goes..
It seems to me that I should
It seems to me that I should find the best configuration for a single cell before moving on to create a series of cells. There are several things I want to try. I'm thinking the Shigete Hasebe Spiral will be my next focus after trying the SS screen disks. I might even try the Shigete Hasebe Spiral with SS screen material. I am also researching the possibility of using Graphite tubes and rods and Cool Polymers, but, that will have to be somewhere down the road. I do know a guy that does plastic injection molds, though. I need to give him a call and have a pow-wow. I also have a good friend, who I used to play music with years ago, who has his Ph. D. in electronic engineering, but I haven't talked to him is several years. I need to get on the horn with him as well I suppose.
Like everyone else, I have to contend with limited resources and time constraints. Can you imagine what we could accomplish if we had the the time to focus our efforts on this stuff all day every day and the resources of General Motors?
oh we would be a super 500
oh we would be a super 500 company---lol just leave me in security with your hodroxy 6 shooter!!!!
I think I might look into dry HHO
also graphite works but breaks down and gets real dirty----there is a guy on youtube who tried it --and had great output but to much upkeep----I just want KISS---I'm way to busy to check water everyday---lol nah take that back lazy
Graphite
Graphite can be impregnated with phenolic resin or coated with a thin coat of a conductive polymer to solve that problem, but I'm just researching the possibility...for now.
All the governmental and university studies I have been reading are indicating that electrodes made of porous materials (ie. graphite & others) significantly enhance production, so a polymer coating would defeat the purpose. It was even suggested that an electrically conductive, non corrosive wool type material would make the best electrodes, but I don't think anybody makes SS wool. This is the reasoning behind trying the SS screen disks packed one on top of another, but I'm gonna have to save up a few pennys before I get to find out. SS screen is expensive.
SS foam
When I was in college I took a material design class and they showed us foamed aluminum. It was very light (lighter than regular aluminum) and just about as strong depending on the bubble to area ratio.
Some of it was very porous, (imagine a sponge) yet was a metal. It was pretty sweet.
I don't know if they have foamed SS but I doubt it... I think that would work pretty good though
.
Porous SS
Maybe I'll look into getting my hands on some of this stuff:
http://www.purolator-facet.com/porous.htm
not cheap
Im betting that stuff is not cheap.
Maybe we should request a quote to get an idea of what it will cost.
I'm thinking the lead
I'm thinking the lead engineer from Prometheus Industries should ask for some FREE SAMPLES to be used in research and development testing...LOL
yeah "BOSS" lol i'm gonna
yeah "BOSS" lol i'm gonna shop around see what comes up
Road test post
Nick, is this what you used when you hit your 63 mpg test?
Yes
It is. I have everything ready to go to install the other half to make it a 6 series cell configuration as soon as my bolts for the washer stacks get here. It'll take maybe 15 minutes or there abouts. I am going to mount a piece of expanded metal in front of them if I decide to keep them mounted in the front, but if the temperatures stay reasonably low, I will place a similar, but a little different (plumbing wise) 6 cell configuration in the metal housing shown and the whole kit and caboodle will go in the trunk.
Innards
Are you going to take some 'innards' pictures before you put the new stacks in. I think you may have some on your newb tube, but you might have updates... I cant remember.
I'm thinking of doing something similar to this (the modular design) but with cups.
But anyways, Nice work
Video
I might make a video of how the washer stacks go together and how they are inserted into the unit.
The real critical part of building this unit is making sure the hole drilled into the side that connects to the SS tube/pipe is straight. I use a 5/16" bit and just use the 3/8" X 3/4" bolt and a little pressure to tap the threads into the PVC. After you have it tapped and everything lines up the way it should, sealing it with PVC glue as you quickly thread it in seems to work the best for preventing leaks. It's a little tricky though. Of course, I use a regualr tap on the SS pipe, but I don't tap it quite all the way. That lets me make sure I have a very tight connection. I then file and sand off the interior so it is smooth.
Video = good
A video would be great.
Thats a good idea to only tap the pipe partially. As I was reading your comment I was thinking, "but how do you get it tight" but then you answered my question a sentence later
.
Similar project
Nick,
Your cell design inspired me to try something similar. I am building 6 tubular cells similar to your Prometheus design, but using different materials. Each tube is a take off of the Hotsabi cell, but with different guts. I use 1 1/2" pvc, each one 8 1/2" long, plus end caps. The bottom is a regular cap, drilled to let a 5/16" threaded rod through. The rod is 8" long stainless (304 was what I had), with enough coming through the bottom for 2 nuts and a neoprene backed stainless washer.
The inside of the tube is stainless steel mesh. I used to work for a paper mill, and my buddy still does. They use a very fine 316L stainless mesh fabric for in certain applications in the mill, and replace them regularly. Last time they did he grabbed me a sheet headed for the scrap pile that was about 6 sq ft, and I have been trying to find a way to use it. What I've done is use it to replace the shim stock on a Hotsabi design, lining the wall of the tube with a piece that is about 6" x 8". Then I drill and tap a 5/16" hole through the side of the tube and mesh, and then put a short ss bolt from the inside out through the side wall. another neoprene backed washer, and two ss nuts, and I have my two terminals.
For the top i am using a screw-on pvc cleanout cap, with a 1/4" barbed connector threaded through it. That way you can just screw off the top and fill. Each cell produces ok - not stellar but ok - but has a tendency to heat up at 12v. Using 6 of them to divide the voltage should take care of the heat issue, and increase the output to be worth adding to a vehicle.
I have done limited testing with shim stock instead of the mesh, and it does work although not as well. Other than that, it is cheap (the rod and shim to make 6 cells is about $24 at Mcmaster), and the pvc and fittings are also cheap and readily available. It is also cheaper than the pipe you are using. I would be interested to see how your cell works replacing the steel pipe with shim stock. The average person has a hard time cutting pipe, but you can cut shim with scissors.
I'll put some pics up when it is finished, and also post some production numbers. I'd like to find some pvc manifolds like the images you posted that take 1 1/2" pipe. The biggest I've seen (with admittedly minimal searching) only take 1" max.
I do think you are onto something with the modular minimal design. Let's keep on it and see what we can come up with for a cheap, simple design.
H
Great Ideas!
I like your ideas a lot. I just got lucky with the pipe. The first local steel supply company I called just happen to have a 4 foot remnant piece of SS pipe that had been laying around their yard for about a year and he let me have it for 20 bucks and they cut it up into various lengths for me for another 10 bucks.
Multiple cells in series definately reduces the temperature. With a the three cell configuration, it seems to max out around 120 degrees which I think is the perfect temperature for electrolysis. I am now producing about 1 and a half liters per minute at 12 volts and 25 amps. I hope, with the addition of three more cells, I will be able to keep the same production with only 15 amps. That would put me over the top of 100% Faraday Efficiency. I'm sure that if I were to pump 45 amps to 6 cells It would produce 3 liters per minute, but I am not interested in joining the LPM pissing contest club.
Why do you want a manifold that will accept 1 1/2'' PVC without a reducer? I think for gas collection smaller is better, but you can always build your own if you have a specific idea that calls for something larger.
Nick
Re: Great ideas
What type/concentration electrolyte are you using to get that 1.5L? I've been using strictly Roebic Lye, and am still playing with the concentrations. I agree with you about the LPM contests. What I really am aiming to do is create something fairly simple and cheap to construct that will give around 1.5L (which is Smack-level), without the heat. Both my normal wrapped Smack and my Cup O' Smack boosters will peak at about 200F, which is way too high. When I watch one set of videos by Smack he states that if your temp is getting that high you are screwed up his design. But when you look at the pdf he provided graphing the production output of his Gen I and Gen II models, they both go above 90C, and his latest comments have been more along the lines of "my cast Acrylic can take the heat". It seems that sealed cells are the way to go to spread voltage and drop the heat, and the multiple tube design is essentially a sealed cell configuration.
I was looking for a 1.5" PVC manifold because it would be nice to only have to open one port to refill all the tubes, and keep them in one compact bunch. I was assuming that using reducers would allow the ends to connect to the manifold, but the 1.5" tubes would be too large to get close enough for all the ends to connect in. If the manifold was designed for 1.5" PVC, all the tubes would be able to extend down vertically, minimizing the diameter of the bunch. I was afraid using reducers would cause the tubes to have to come in at an angle, fanning them out and requiring a much larger space.
When I take my 6 tubes now I can bunch them together with another 1.5" PVC tube in the middle for a bubbler, and have the whole stack measure 6.5" in diameter. In comparison my Smack booster without a bubbler attached is 5.5" across, so the extra inch is a small trade off for reduced cost and no heat problems.
I snapped some pics of the cells I am building last night with my phone. I will create an Electrolyzer entry for them this afternoon, so you can see what I am cobbling together. I also took a picture of the SS mesh I have. What are you looking to do with SS screen? If the stuff I have is similar to what you want, I'd be glad to mail you a piece to play with. It isn't flimsy like shim stock, and could easily be cut into discs. I actually use small circular pieces in the top of the cells I am building to keep the foam down. I cut it with a pair of shears, and it will maintain the shape you put it in pretty well. Let me know if you are interested. I don't have an unlimited supply, but I have stolen enough from your design that I feel like I owe you something.
H
You owe me nothing, my
You owe me nothing, my friend, except your ongoing efforts to save a few bucks and help break the stranglehold of big oil and big government in the process. I would, however, be interested in experimenting with whatever material would comfortably fit in an stamped envelope. I'll send you a Private Message with my address and such. If you give me yours, I will send you a stamped envelope, so it doesn't cost you anything.
I, too, am just using Roebic from Lowe's and am getting 500 ml in about 20 seconds at 25 amps. I'll post another video in my "Not an H-H-Ometer" blog thread. I need to test it out anyway!
Mesh
Check your private messages, and then in a couple days your mailbox.
Concentration
I put together the rest of my cells last night, and started playing around with them to see what kind of output I would get. I'm curious how much Roebic you put in to achieve your results. I was trying to get the amp draw up on my cells (5 tubes at about 12.5 volts), and I never got above 5 or 6 amps. Have you found a sweet spot for NaOH solution?
Also, where did you get your PWM? I've seen something about building one out of a cordless drill, and I have one kicking around that could be sacrificed to science, but don't want to waste my time if they are cheaply/readily available. Any sources?
Thanks - H
PWM
There are a couple links in the "links" section of the wiki:
http://www.bakatronics.com/shop/item.aspx?itemid=581
http://www.myskunkworks.net/servlet/the-Electronic-Controllers/Categorie...
and I had a few others, I don't know if they are any good though:
http://stores.homestead.com/hydrogengarage/Categories.bok?category=Elect...
Ebay has some
OR... you could build ZFF's current sensing one, which is probably the coolest one :):
http://www.alt-nrg.org/pwm-v2.html
an alternative design based on zero's:
http://www3.telus.net/chemelec/Projects/Hydrogen/I-Limit-PWM/I-Limit-PWM...
Still investigating
This is something I haven't quite come to terms with yet. At the moment I have a concentration of about 8 oz. of Sodium Hydroxide per gallon, but I have ordered 500 grams (500 gram = 1.102 pounds) of 99% pure laboratory grade Potassium Hydroxide and I intend to mix the whole amount with a gallon of distilled water and give it a whirl.
I purchased my PWM from myskunkworks.net because it was rated for 80 amps and one I had purchased earlier that was rated for 30 amps didn't hold up for more than 20 minutes (I got my money back). I found out that the thing is, with PWM's, you have to keep the temperature of the mosfet below 120F. I'm interested, but i'm not investigating all the frequency/harmonic gobbledygook at the moment, so I went with the straight duty cycle control in order to just control the amps.
Man
You're serious about this stuff! $200 for a PWM is way outside my allowance, so I might have to build a cheapie or dismantle a drill. Thanks for the electrolyte info. Your solution strength is way above what I was doing, which is probably why my production was down. I'll mix up some stronger juice, and have another go tomorrow. Hopefully I will get some decent numbers, and have something to post. With the voltage spread across 5 or 6 cells, I don't think heat will be a problem. I might also try adding some washers to my stack to see if bringing the electrodes closer together ups production. I just want to be sure i avoid a short.
At the time, the one I
At the time, the one I bought was $119, but it has paid for itself already. Is 4 bucks a gallon every 20 miles within your allowance?
testing
I did some more testing of my tubes, increasing my Roebic concentration. I'm going to have to add a bunch more to get to 25 amps. I did outline my testing in the comments of my MesHH0 electrolyzer, if you are interested. I'd like to get to a similar amp draw as you, to see how the rod/screen combo compares to the washer/pipe electrodes. I'm curious - what temperature do you get to after running for a while? Also - did the wire mesh show up yet?
Just checked my mail
No mesh yet.
I think you might have too much distance between your electrodes. You need to try and keep it within an 1/8th inch. Also, in order to properly handle 25 amps, the surface area of your smallest electrode (the rod), would need to be about 50 square inches) and the I.D. of 1.5" sch 40 PVC is about 1.25 inches and the open area of your screen is probably 50%, so the screen would need to be about 4 feet tall. For short term testing, though, it shouldn't hurt anything.
This is why I have the washers and one of the reasons why I am shooting for max output for 8 to 10 amps. A compact design does have it's drawbacks, but if I made my pipes and waher stacks 5" tall instead of 3", they could handle 25 amps all day long. That would, however, be counterproductive to my conservation of energy approach. I only bump it up to 25 amps for testing purposes. Still, I wouldn't be afraid to run tests at twice that for a few minutes at a time.
Using screens for my wahser stacks should be fine, though, because I have plenty of room to stack enough screens to attain the proper amount of surface area for my target amperage. As an aside, my washer stacks are my anodes (where hydrogen gas bubbles form) and I believe the vast majority of the curerent density is concentrated on the edges of the washers and not evenly distributed across the entire surface of each washer. This is why I believe I have better results with more washers spaced closer together than what the math would suggest to be the optimum number and spacing for the washers.
more testing
That makes sense. In just messing around, I changed the config from 5 tubes to 6, and my amp draw dropped to about 6, and the production slowed down. Then I went to just 4, and amps went up to 21 and the production hit about 1 lpm. I'm sure I'm creating heat at that rate, but didn't let it go very long to find out how much. I then wired it to be 2 sets of 3 in parallel, and managed to blow my 30 amp fuse before I could reach for my ammeter to measure it. Of course, my electrolyte concentration is crazy high right now. I think I want to try to drop it back down to a reasonable level, and then see what I get from 3 cells in prometheus fashion. If I can get .5lmp or better at 10 amps or so, I can run two stacks that way and get a reasonable amount of hydroxy to work with.
I'm curious - I saw you mention somewhere a cost of $50. Is that $50 per cell, or $50 for all three as shown in your pics?
It depends on how you want to look at it.
I got about a 4 foot long piece of pipe for $20 bucks, another $10 to have them cut it up for me. 316 bolts were about $4 apiece, all the ss washers were about $20 and all the PVC stuff was about another $20...so, I guess, It's costing me less than $100 for all six and that's counting all the R & D mistakes and do overs.
When all is said and done, though, I have spent somewhere in the neighborhood of $500 for everything...counting a new power supply, a new PWM, tools, drill bits, hoses, bubblers, electrolyte and assorted odds and ends...some of which I can and will use for other things for a long time to come.
Now then, I drive around 600 miles a month which, at $4 every 30 miles would costs me around $80 a month or nearly $1000 a year. my investment, however, has cut that in half and much of what I have paid in has already been returned to me and will contiue to pay off far into the future.
Cost is all a matter of perspective. Either tighten the belt and bite the bullet now or get prepared to pay $7 or $8 a gallon in the future with no hope of recompense or relief of any kind. It's not just a hobby and it's not a luxury; it's a necessity and an investment.
3000 mile road test
Beginning December 21st, a vehicle equipped with a 6 cell Prometheus system will head out on a 3000 mile round trip journey from Stillwater, Oklahoma across the Rocky Mountains and two deserts to Elsinore, California just to turn around and come back one week later. That should be the final word on performance and dependability of the system. Installation will be complete tomorrow and any tweaking that needs to be done will be completed over the next few days. There will be no PWM, EFIE's or any other electronics, besides the system's cell switching capability, installed. We are only going to do an ECU reset.